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thefunnyguys: Hello, hey everyone, it's six o'clock, so thank you all for joining. Hey Kate, thanks for joining us.
Kate Vass: Hello everybody, thank you very much for your invitation.
thefunnyguys: Let me first introduce the Le Random team that is on this call. So first of all, there's Peter Bauman, Monk Antony, who actually writes the generative art timeline. This timeline, just to remind you, is ten chapters in total. We already released two of them, and for every chapter we want to do a Twitter Space to discuss it. There's also Conrad, who I think is dialed in from the Le Random account. Conrad and I will be co-hosting this talk.
And then, of course, there is Kate Vass, our guest today, who is the founder of Kate Vass Galerie in Zurich, Switzerland, which has been focused on generative and new media art since 2017. This gallery is showcasing and distributing the work of both established and emerging artists in these fields, and has organized, in our opinion, very important exhibitions, such as Automat und Mensch in 2019, which was created by Georg Bak and Jason Bailey. But yeah, Kate, can you tell us a bit more about yourself? And I'm also interested to learn where your interest in modern art began.
Kate Vass: Thank you for the kind introduction. Once again, I don't really like to speak about myself, to be honest with you. But yes, my background is actually very diverse.
I guess my artistic relevance starts from my childhood, because I've been in theater and music and I've been always developing my career towards performing, and playing piano, singing and playing in a theater. So I guess my education about the history of modern art, and most of it from music perspective, musical history, came from the childhood, because I was really passionate about that.
And later, when I was a teenager, my life has changed and I developed my career a little bit in a different direction. But not too far away, because I think music is very mathematical, and I developed my career in finance and math. So not too far away.
And being in banking and asset management and coming from investment side, I've been always looking and collecting arts, mostly photography and contemporary art. And by engaging from the collector's perspective first, for almost like five to seven years, I would say, and really, really spending too much time, I would say, for collecting and visiting all the fairs and the galleries opening and artist studios. I think it was from 2014 towards 2016. That's when I also decided that I am going to leave financial industry and start my own thing.
And that said, I opened up my consultancy business back at the time about advisory services for collecting and managing alternative assets, which are obviously related to arts as well.
And in 2017, just by chance, I was in contact with one of the photography gallerists, actually. I had this idea of why not to open up the space in Zurich, just to help him out, because he was in different location. And by writing a business plan and sort of brainstorming this, I ended up opening the gallery eventually alone, not with a partner. But that's how I came across the interesting space. I mean, the concept changed as well, because I was ending up to do it alone, not with a concept of existing gallery.
And I didn't want to, if I would do it alone, I felt like I don't want to do it in a classical way. I don't want to see the sort of white cube, obscure space, very cold, very uninviting, most of the time very intimidating, where once you go to the gallery there is no information and someone is sitting just behind the counter and nobody wants to talk to you because you are not one of the famous collectors, for example, or I don't know, if they're personally not engaged with the gallery somehow that they can meet and greet you and welcome you nicely.
So I wanted to create something different, where the gallery would serve the purpose of almost a museum, where you can actually invite more wider audience and try to educate, if audience wants to be educated, and where they can sit down, enjoy, read a book, get access to the library, which I have quite a lot of books and collect books as well, and feel like home around art and discuss and get familiar. Also mostly focusing on the new generation of collectors, because this is the most important generation, because I want to live around people who are also passionate about the same things I'm passionate about. So that's how I started, really. Like a short story.
Conrad House: Thank you for the introduction, Kate. And thank you for actually joining us for this more broad chapter two discussion of our timeline. I think before we get started into some of the moments that we highlight here today, I wanted to ask Peter, what was the idea behind starting the modern art era at 1850 instead of 1860? I think when you look at a lot of previous timelines or historical resources, you see that the modern era began around 1860. But for us, we started a decade earlier. So what was the thought process behind that?
Peter Bauman: Yeah, I think that's a really good question. So the short answer is that my favorite history of digital art or electronic art is probably Frank Popper's Art of the Electronic Age. And he begins the story of electronic art with the arts and crafts movement, and the arts and crafts movement was directly inspired by this London Great Exhibition, this World's Fair in London in 1851. So we'll be able to talk about that in the first moment. But that's why we started it there, just because of that connection from Frank Popper to the arts and crafts movement. And I'll talk a bit about how that's connected, how the arts and crafts movement is connected to this Great Exhibition.
Conrad House: Yeah. And I think with that, we can jump right into that first moment. You mentioned 1851, the Great Exhibition of London, like the early spark for the arts and crafts movement. And then just talking about how it ties to industrialization and art nouveau or the Bauhaus movement, Peter.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, sure. So again, Frank Popper starts his history of electronic art with arts and crafts. And the arts and crafts movement was directly inspired by this Great Exhibition of London, because this was really the first time that a lot of industrial and manufactured goods were being produced and showcased. This is 1850, so this is still the beginning of industrialization. In Western Europe it's been going on for a few decades, but it has not reached the point. So it hasn't really reached a lot of the world yet. And so this was the first time a lot of these manufactured goods were introduced.
And the arts and crafts movement was inspired by how poor the quality was of these manufactured goods. And so the arts and crafts movement, ironically, because it was such an important part of the mechanization of art history, they were staunchly opposed to this cheaply made manufactured goods. And that was where they decided that was the inspiration for their founding. And that influence that they had on the arts and crafts is the main reason why we started here.
And yeah, Kate, is there anything you wanted to add about the arts and crafts movement, or about when you would start the history of modern art, or this Great Exhibition of London?
Kate Vass: Yeah, of course. Thank you. Well, I think by first receiving the points of milestones in the history of art that you have shared with me, I was first a bit like, oh my God, interesting, why these particular points. But after I looked at them more closely, it makes sense. Because I think the Crystal Palace exhibition, which also was this Great Exhibition of London, which was organized by Prince Albert. I mean, initially, I always tried to connect it with also political situation, what was back at the time, because it always has this meaning. And the British economy was like very near in its heights in comparison to the rest of the world. And I guess that was also one of the parts like why Prince Albert wanted to showcase British industrial technology and culture and sponsored the whole exhibition.
At the end of the day, they ended up, of course, showcasing also international contributors and thousands of objects, including also companies and individuals. And afterwards, arts and crafts movement became quite important movement.
I also think we should bridge it somehow, if it influenced somehow to generative art. And if we want to find this point somehow, if we do, I think this particular milestone, from my perspective, and I'm not an art historian, I think it's kind of sought to promote craftsmanship and all these techniques and, the most important, integration of all art into everyday life. So like generative and crypto art or Web3 movement, sort of also the same ambition, that to bring art into everyday life for everybody. And I think that was also having more or less the same purpose at the end of the day. Apart from what you mentioned, Peter.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, I think that is a really critical part of this movement. And also with arts and crafts, what's important is the effect that it also had on the art nouveau movement that followed. And then from there, constructivism and Bauhaus and Victor Vasarely and GRAV. And so I see it as sort of the modern beginning of the story. And if you look at the timeline of chapter two, we go into a lot closer detail of exactly how the arts and crafts and art nouveau and Bauhaus movements were connected.
Kate Vass: Yeah, absolutely. I think art nouveau took many ideas from arts and crafts. But I think they were combining also with more organic forms and getting inspiration also from nature, in comparison to arts and crafts. But yeah, I think it's definitely, art nouveau embraced a lot of aspects of industrialization and as well the materials and techniques from arts and crafts.
thefunnyguys: I really like it how you also discussed the political situation. I think it's also inspiring for these days. It's probably not a coincidence that the US is the epicenter of the generative arts at the moment, potentially after leading the technological developments on the Internet for the last decades. So I think it's very, very interesting.
The next moment we wanted to discuss is where most timelines begin when it comes to modern art. In 1863, Manet created the work Le Déjeuner sur l'herbe, which was rejected by the Paris Salon for its unconventional style and subject matter. And after this, Manet, together with Cézanne and some other artists, established the Salon des Refusés, which translates to the exhibition of rejects. And I was wondering, Kate, do you think we can draw any parallels between this moment in art history and the rise to significance of the generative art movements?
Kate Vass: I think we can draw our significance to all the points of the history. I think all the points that mentioned in chapter one of your series and chapter two have some impact, some of them more significantly, some less significant, on generative art and computer art, I mean contemporary one.
Art nouveau, I mean, we're still talking about the Belle Époque. I mean, when you talk about the Manet work rejected by the Paris Salon. And yeah, I think impressionism's movement, and Manet's work is a pre-impressionism sort of thing. It's definitely a good point to start looking at the references. But I just want to say that chapter one of your series also had a lot of points that I think are very significant and impacted as well.
Talking about the Manet rejected thing, I love this story. When I was learning the history of art, I particularly enjoyed that, because he was rejected and he said like, OK, hell, we are going to just do it. I was talking with Georg Bak in 2018, when we've been doing this blockchain exhibition, and we invested a lot of energy into explaining people why the blockchain art is art, and educational sessions, et cetera. And we were making jokes that probably we just have to call this exhibition Salon des Refusés and just call it the day, because at the end of the day you don't see those guys in the museums. Of course, we didn't know that it's going to be so widely accepted very, very soon. I felt that it's going to be eventually accepted, but I didn't realize it's going to be so soon.
thefunnyguys: Amazing, thanks Kate. Around this period in time, a little bit later, Cézanne also created the Mont Sainte-Victoire series. And Peter, maybe I can ask this to you. Why do you think Cézanne was such an important figure in modern art history, and specifically this series, why was it so influential?
Peter Bauman: Yeah, so this series was especially where Cézanne started, in particular, breaking from these traditional conventions and flattening space. He started using a lot of geometric shapes and abstraction. So he has a quote of saying that painters should, quote unquote, treat nature by means of the cylinder, the sphere, the cone. And so this is really when you start seeing these representations of reality start to fracture, with Cézanne. And I think it's really about how influential Cézanne was to cubism, even saying that Cézanne was the father of us all. So this is a hugely important connection in art history, from this sort of impressionism movement to the sort of abstract, geometric abstraction movement.
Kate Vass: Absolutely. I think also, because Cézanne was so early, like sort of pioneer for cubism. I think he was there together, of course, with Braque and Picasso. They were trying to break the objects into, trying to develop this style where the objects would be broken up and reassembled and then analyzed in abstract form.
And I think Kenny Schachter was referring, in one of his articles about cubism, that they were the first one looking or in search for the fourth dimension. And I think this is also an interesting reference, because cubists were in search for the fourth dimension and, with our generative art, probably we are looking for fifth, sixth dimensions already. And I like that reference. I just remembered this Kenny's article. I don't remember which one, but I think it was last year.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, I think that mention of the fourth dimension is really, really critical. And I think that also plays an important role in this history of digital art and electronic art, because the fourth dimension is time. And so time in a painting, or time in plastic art, is the sense of motion. And so much of electronic art is the history of motion in art, and going from a static painting to a digital, immersive and animated experience. And so I think that this period between Cézanne and Picasso, with cubism and adding the fourth dimension, is so important in that step in generative art history.
thefunnyguys: Absolutely, I agree. Yeah, it's also interesting to see how many generative artists have been directly inspired by Cézanne. Because for the Mont Sainte-Victoire, Vera Molnár has a series dedicated to it. And just last week we had a call with Harvey Rayner, well, actually Twitter Spaces, and he also mentioned that Cézanne's color work is a direct inspiration for him. So these intergenerational dialogues are also super, super interesting.
And the next moment that we think is very significant from this period, I think we already touched on this, but this early work.
Kate Vass: He was very radical, took a very radical approach, I would say, in this particular painting. And they are like multiple perspectives within single image, and lots of introduction and elements of African tribal masks, and a lot of things that then will be later associated with cubism.
But I think it also came, again I want to say, from political kind of thing. Because again, France was, later at the end of 19th century, going through a well period of economy, and was also expanding a lot into colonials, like people could travel to Africa particularly. And I think Paris was also a very important cultural hub, center of art nouveau and many other different movements which actually emerged also during the Belle Époque. And I think that also helped a lot the artists to be inspired from the African culture. And also maybe there was no internet, there was no connection, so this time sense, and also to maybe recall or imagine this travel in time or different dimensions. I think it was also inspired by that, with the whole culture that it was in France at that time. Because if you look at the other countries at the same time, there was a different sort of movements and different feelings.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, and we will definitely get to some other countries, especially when we start talking soon about Bauhaus. But yeah, I think just to tack on a little bit more about this painting and just the beginning of analytical cubism here in 1907, and touching again on that fourth dimension. In addition to bringing that element of dynamism to a static canvas, it also did a lot to present these multiple perspectives of an object and break down this single composition and this fixed viewpoint that had been so important in art history, going back to at least since the Renaissance. So not only did it suggest this time and fourth dimension, this passage of time, but it also shattered this notion of the fixed viewpoint. And both of those were so important to the upcoming op art and kinetic art movements, which were two really important predecessors of digital generative art.
Conrad House: This moment, it's still within the same year of 1907, and we talk about Hilma af Klint's really monumental series, the Ten Biggest. And maybe I can ask Peter if you can expand on why this series was so significant to af Klint's creative process, and maybe how this style of non-objective abstraction helped lead to some of the generative aesthetics, or maybe even generative ideas, that we see today.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, sure. And of course, I can touch on this briefly. But what's so interesting about these pieces from 1907 is that if you look at an art history textbook, or you Google it online, of who quote unquote invented abstract art or geometric abstraction, or like when was the first abstract painting, usually you get answers like Kandinsky or Mondrian or Malevich. And all of those works were close to inspiration.
So we're talking 80 years after it was first produced. And so these works have such an interesting story in the history of geometric abstraction. But I think they critically highlight some of the obstacles that women artists had to face, where they didn't have a place to exhibit their work, and then they weren't even comfortable enough to exhibit it during their lifetime. So, yeah, I'd love to hear Kate's perspective on this as well.
Kate Vass: I actually love that you mentioned this point, because, I mean, to me it represents two things. And I think you already mentioned that. So I totally agree with you that, first of all, as a female artist, she was earlier, and she was actually early for all of us.
And for the ones who actually don't know Hilma af Klint, I think she was practicing also, it was very popular back at the time, this sort of transcendental spiritualism, meaning that you kind of gather and have this séance, in French, and try to connect with spirits, with multiple spirits or with just one spirit, either directly or through the medium. And it was very, very popular. And I think she started practicing that very early, and I think got involved even more. And her practice is very much related to that.
And I think why is it important to speak about her is, again, it's this sort of travel in time first. And that she got this commission of the Ten Biggest. She claimed that she had this communication from the spirit on one of the séances and been asked to create this work. And then she started creating and creating and creating. And then, I mean, she wasn't exhibited, of course, because of her will. She said it's too early, the world is not ready for my work. Please exhibit my work 20 years after the death. But eventually, you're right, it was very, very later when it was publicly shown.
And if you look at her work, for the ones who haven't seen that, I think it's so contemporary. It's mind blowing. You're just looking at the absolutely contemporary art. And I used to have to believe maybe she did have a connection with the spirits and she could speak to that. And maybe it was some sort of voice from the future that talked to her and asked her to create all this sort of planes.
So I think, yeah, apart from being early, being a female artist, underrated, not referenced enough for this thing, and then for being very, very early time in her work, and again, this more like a transcendental spiritualism, which is interesting. That's what I wanted to add.
thefunnyguys: Thanks, Kate, for this additional background on the amazing Hilma af Klint. I see some new faces in the spaces, by the way, and I just want to mention that the way the space is structured is that we go through moments, which can be found on timeline.lerandom.art. We're currently discussing the second chapter, so the modern art one.
“And if you look at her work, for the ones who haven't seen that, I think it's so contemporary. It's mind blowing. You're just looking at the absolutely contemporary art.” — Kate Vass 29:38
And this brings us to the fifth moment that we're going to discuss. We're actually combining a few moments here. So we situate ourselves in 1915, and constructivism has just been established by Tatlin and Rodchenko, and Malevich also organized this 0.10 exhibition. And Peter, I actually want to ask you, for this last moment that I mentioned, Malevich, his exhibition, you write that suprematism's exaltation of pure form and geometry would become fundamental aspects of digital generative art. I was just going to ask you, can you expand a bit on this specific line?
Peter Bauman: Yeah, so with suprematism and their focus on pretty much complete and total abstraction, I mean, as evidenced by a black square on a white background. And so this highlights the importance of geometry in generative art's history.
And so if you look back at chapter one of our timeline, a lot of those moments were looking at the development of visualizing mathematics and visualizing algorithms, and the importance of geometry and logic and algorithmic thinking in that kind of visualization of mathematics. And so I think that this kind of Malevich's suprematism and his focus on geometry, it was fundamental to digital generative art, when later artists would use a lot of these same mathematic principles and start coding their work and start representing shapes and geometry through code. And I think this is really one of the most important predecessors and forebears. Is there anything about suprematism and Malevich or constructivism that you wanted to add, Kate?
Kate Vass: It's interesting, because for me it's not only about the geometry. I think you mentioned in timeline there Rodchenko and Tatlin, constructivism. And those two movements were like at the same time, which was interesting, because constructivism was mostly focused on the idea that art should serve like a greater purpose and contribute to construction, society and everything. And it has to be functional and practical. And suprematism was more like metaphysical sort of way.
And about Malevich, Black Square, I think he just wanted to sort of reject any representational art. And they didn't know probably how to express themselves beyond the canvas and beyond depicting this physical world. That's why for me suprematism is like very metaphysical. And that's the reason why it's so important for generative art as well. It's like the movement which was seeking to transcend from the physical world and get pure forms, colors and individual exploration, if that makes sense.
Peter Bauman: Yeah. And also, like you mentioned about suprematism and constructivism, it's so fascinating, this kind of rivalry between Tatlin and Malevich, and how interesting it was that they were exhibiting in the same way in the same year, 1915, and even in the same place in Russia. So such an interesting moment and year in the history of art and the story of generative art, 1915.
Kate Vass: But I think it's also again related to the history of what was actually happening in Russia back at the time.
“And that's the reason why it's so important for generative art as well. It's like the movement which was seeking to transcend from the physical world and get pure forms, colors and individual exploration, if that makes sense.” — Kate Vass 33:57
Peter Bauman: Yeah. You know, the revolution and World War One.
Kate Vass: Yeah, exactly. And I think there was a certain propaganda taking place for particular things, and industrialization. And Rodchenko and Tatlin, who've been believing in this propaganda probably. And as much as I enjoy Rodchenko photography, I see this influence, political influence, a lot. And probably the other party, who've been like suprematists, they've been by intuition probably disagreeing what's going on and what is like with the reality around them.
And as much as I looked and read about Malevich Black Square, there's a lot of different stories of how it was painted and created. I think it was more like he was very pure. Like, really talented people can feel time or what's going to happen in a couple of years by themselves. And I think it was just sort of the feeling that there is no other way to express the world around you, or how the world will change around you. And we're talking about the World War, by just sort of eliminating to level zero, because everything will be just washed away from the surface. And that's the reality. And probably this is the intuition by artists, intuition that there is no other way to express yourself, particularly on canvas. So it is very individual. But I think suprematism is one of my favorite movements. That's why I'm so emotional when I speak about that.
Conrad House: Yeah, thank you for those responses. I really like how you mentioned it's like one of the first movements that seemed to transcend the medium that it was created on, and the influence that played in future endeavors of creative processes.
And as we move to our next moment, from 1919, we talk about one of the first large institutions that played a big role in some of the most influential developments. And it's when Walter Gropius founds the Bauhaus.
Kate Vass: Can I interrupt you? I'm so sorry.
Conrad House: Go ahead, Kate.
Kate Vass: I am wondering, it really left me puzzled why there was no Dada movement, which was born the same year, mentioned on the timeline.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, I think in terms of the history or the importance of this movement in early 20th century art, generative art, I think there's no question. And this is something that lots of art historians mention. You know, Dada along with constructivism and usually futurism, and or suprematism is mentioned too. So you're absolutely right. Dada is one of, if not the most important movements in the story. And it's very much, it plays a central role on the timeline in chapter two. We didn't mention it here in these top ten moments, at least explicitly, just because of constraints in time. But I think it's a really good point that Dada deserves mention. And it's around the same time period. Is there anything you want to add about it, Kate?
Kate Vass: No, no. I just think maybe when we talk about the next point of Marcel Duchamp, we can talk about Dada as well.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, that's a good point. Great. He didn't identify as a Dadaist, but certainly, along with surrealism and conceptual art, he was one of its biggest figures.
Kate Vass: Yeah, I think we know what we're talking about.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, so I think we can transition to that.
Conrad House: I think we can transition to the Bauhaus's influence, and maybe even tack on that eighth moment that we have mentioned, of Gunta Stölzl being named the director of the Bauhaus workshop, and the influence that had, and the large regard of the influence of the females that were really leading the processes within the Bauhaus. If Peter wants to, Peter or Kate wants to expand on that.
Peter Bauman: Maybe I'll just really briefly talk about connecting arts and crafts to Bauhaus again. And then Kate, you can please feel free to take from there.
But yeah, just going back, I really want to hammer this connection between arts and crafts and Bauhaus. Arts and crafts was really about synthesizing this kind of relationship between artists, machines and art. And then William Morris took the stand against poorly made manufactured goods, which again he encountered for the first time at the World's Fair in 1851. But then it was Henry van de Velde, a Belgian, who brought these kinds of arts and crafts and art nouveau ideas to Germany. And Henry van de Velde, he started the Weimar School of Arts and Crafts.
And so he was Belgian. And in 1915, again, like Kate said, the history and the context matters so much in 1915. And because he was Belgian, he had to leave Germany because of World War I. And Walter Gropius took over at that Weimar School of Arts and Crafts. And it was from there that Gropius turned the school into the Bauhaus in 1919. And that's kind of where the story starts. And I'll let Kate talk about its influence, but I just wanted to highlight some of that genealogy one more time.
Kate Vass: Let me talk about influence. That's not fair. I think, oh God. Well, I think it kind of goes without saying that Bauhaus movement clearly, even from the aesthetic point of view, has a huge influence on generative art. And yeah, aesthetics is definitely picked up quite, quite vividly in a majority of the works, particularly if we look at the earlier works by generative artists. I'm talking about our contemporary artists that we all know from recent years.
But I think what I personally like about the Bauhaus movement is that the philosophy was sort of aimed to very holistically arrange everything together, and then merge all the different elements and fine arts and architecture and technology together, and bring this to social and cultural change through this sort of movement.
And I think it's also, apart from just an aesthetic, geometrical point of view and design and everything, which is very obvious and I don't think I need to talk about that, I think there is a certain similarity of generative art being social and trying to change our culture through this as well. Because I've seen a lot of people join in the space, start collecting generative art without any connoisseurship about art or fine art or history or design or photography, and then through that they got involved. And this is what really I admire, is that it engages people and it brings on the surface so many different layers and encourages people to learn. And I think that's what is really important.
Peter Bauman: Yeah. Sorry to throw you that hot potato there, but no, I think you answered it beautifully. And just wanted to also add on the connection from the constructivism school to Bauhaus, through the works or through some of the professors there. So, yeah, Wassily Kandinsky and then László Moholy-Nagy as well. So they took those constructivist ideas and brought them to the Bauhaus, especially integrating art and design and technology.
And then just reflecting on some of the staff at the school in general, you know, Anni and Josef Albers, you have Johannes Itten and Paul Klee and Kandinsky and Stölzl, and then Moholy-Nagy. So it was just a wildly important movement that started here in 1919. And, you know, unfortunately it was shut down. I think it was 1933. And that really precipitated, along with the rest of World War II, this kind of art drain or brain drain from continental Europe towards the United States. And maybe we can talk about that later. But it's just such a hugely important moment on the timeline. And if there's anything else you want to add, Kate?
“And this is what really I admire, is that it engages people and it brings on the surface so many different layers and encourages people to learn.” — Kate Vass 42:40
Kate Vass: Yeah, absolutely. I think I should add to that beautiful group of artists Josef Albers, who is usually very much overlooked, also when we talk about the Bauhaus movement. And I think he brought a lot also to our contemporary scene. A lot of quotes that can be used when we talk about our space now. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Peter, thank you very much for pointing that out. I mean, there was a lot of experimentation and lots of theoretical studies. And I think Kandinsky's style also changed a lot and was influenced a lot by Bauhaus.
Conrad House: Yeah, thank you for that kind of historical lesson and genealogy lesson. We tried to get a lot of the work done behind the Bauhaus and some of the large influences it played in a wide array of creative mediums.
And then as we move to the seventh moment, I think Kate touched on this a bit with the Dada movement, but talking about Marcel Duchamp and Man Ray's Rotary Glass Plates and its introduction into optical art a bit, and its significance. And I wanted to ask Peter why you felt this particular piece was important to include into the timeline, and maybe even the specific ten moments that we covered in this Twitter Space.
Peter Bauman: Yeah. So for me, this moment, it goes back to that genealogy of arts and crafts, art nouveau, constructivism, Bauhaus, Victor Vasarely, GRAV, that went from there into cybernetic art, Nicolas Schöffer, arts and technology movement. So I think you can't talk about the history of generative art without talking about cybernetic art. And I think that cybernetic art is a really important step in the development of the art movement.
And I think that's what is really important about cybernetic art. This early lumino-kinetic art of Man Ray and Duchamp was really an important step, again, in that kind of freeing art from the static canvas and letting it express itself more in terms of dynamism and motion and light. And that's exactly what these kind of early kinetic sculptures represent. And Kate, is there anything you wanted to add to that, or should we move to the next moment?
Kate Vass: No, I think, I had a question why you chose particularly that work by Marcel Duchamp and Man Ray, but it makes absolute sense. Yeah, now you talked about it, so it's all fine.
I just wanted to mention that while I was going through the historical point milestones of innovations, I was fascinated, because neon lights were found in 1910. Like, that's how early everything was. And I think during that time of the creation of this work, it was already like sound on film technology invented. And if you think about it, it's fascinating how all the tools that we are using every day in our lives were invented so early. I mean, no wonder that people are so creative with all this innovation around them.
Conrad House: Yeah, I think that's such a really good point. It's like, as soon as a lot of this technology comes out, people are already starting to think about how they can use it in a creative way. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about art and just people as well.
Kate Vass: Yeah, I think science and innovation and arts, I think they're also very, very close to one another. And I think now that we are going closer to the computer inventions and more to contemporary scene, I think it's very important to feature all this scientific and innovation creations.
Conrad House: Yeah, that's a perfect transition to our next moment, talking about Konrad Zuse and some of his largest inventions, whether that's the Z1 or Z3 or ENIAC that we have all included into the timeline. Maybe, Peter, you can expand on Zuse's evolution of building these machines and what each new development brought with each of the things, and maybe even some of his influential work with plotter machines and other inventions.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, I mean, Zuse is such an interesting character in the story, because he was making these highly technical, extremely, you know, he was making mainframe computers before they even existed. He was making the very first digital computers ever, in basically his mother's basement in Germany while World War II was going on. I mean, it's just such a fascinating story. And so fascinating that after the Z1, and he created this Z3 a few years later, that it was actually destroyed by Allied bombing in World War II, in 1941. So the very first kind of functioning programmable digital computer, that paved the way for kind of so much in computer science and then this story about digital art and generative art, it was kind of very unceremoniously destroyed just two years after it was built. A fascinating story if you want to look into that more.
We only have a few more minutes here. Kate, is there anything you wanted to add about Zuse, or just any comments you wanted to make about the timeline or the chapter in general?
Kate Vass: Well, I like innovation. So, I mean, all this, like, first computer, it was destroyed, and then ENIAC, which was also not, like, there were other computers that had combinations with these features. But ENIAC I think was the only one which had all this full spectrum of programmable, electronic and general purpose digital computer.
Again, why all this innovation so fast and so vividly taking place? And also German engineer, we are in the middle of World War Second. So no wonder that innovation and science are the first ones to win any war. So I guess this is also very much connected again to further development of computers and artificial intelligence and all the philosophers that emerged later. And I think we are going to talk about cybernetics and further theory of communication as our last chapter, right?
thefunnyguys: Yes, that's correct, Kate. That's the last moment that we want to discuss in this space. It's actually two moments combined, in 1948. So Norbert Wiener wrote Cybernetics and Claude Shannon wrote A Mathematical Theory of Communication. And to finish it off, Peter, why are these two texts so important as groundwork for generative art?
Peter Bauman: Yeah. So, I mean, Max Bense in the 50s and 60s would kind of develop this theory of cybernetics and information theory, and he was really interested in how these generative systems, how they are, also how you could quantify aesthetics. And it was a really important moment when Norbert, in 1947, 1948, and it also happened to be at MIT, where so much of the story of generative art takes place, coined the word cybernetics. And it was in that same year that Norbert Wiener published Cybernetics, and then A Mathematical Theory of Communication. And so those are the foundations of it.
thefunnyguys: Awesome. Thanks, Peter. Yeah, so this was the last moment we wanted to discuss for this chapter. Next week we will be launching our third chapter that will talk about the 1950s. And just as a small teaser, in the 1950s we cover the rise of computing and the first artwork made on analog computers, including pioneering work of Mary Ellen Bute and Ben Laposky. We will also cover the rise of cybernetic, conceptual and kinetic arts, which are three profoundly influential developments in the rise of digital generative arts. I just want to thank all of you for listening in. And of course, Kate, for joining us to discuss this chapter. It was really, yeah, it was amazing to have you, Kate.
Kate Vass: Thank you very much, guys. I hope I could be a good guest.
Peter Bauman: Thank you so much, Kate.
Conrad House: Thank you so much. Thank you, Kate.
thefunnyguys: We do have a request. If you can stay on for one minute, I can give Grace the microphone. Sorry, I just saw it now. Hey, Grace, you should be able to talk.
Grace: Thank you so much. So this is Grace. I do have a question. Could we have a space to discuss the Bauhaus? Because it's such a big topic. It's such an important movement that it's also part of our lives today, right? Hundred years later. And I mean, there's something about the structure of it, the longevity, that is very particular, evidently, and I don't know what it is. But if we can discuss it and just try to figure it out together, that would be great.
thefunnyguys: Yeah, we can do that.
Grace: I mean, what do you think it is? Because it's definitely just that moment, and I think it would still be, you know, important in hundred years from now. And that's very hard for any kind of art or even architecture to do.
Kate Vass: Absolutely. I think if the hosts are up for that, I'm very much enthusiastic to speak about Bauhaus. There's so many people, so much to discuss. It's very diverse and full of historical milestones period, with fantastic line of artists.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, I would definitely love to. And we didn't even get a chance to really talk about the weaving workshop much. So I think you could have a space, a full space, about any of these ten moments that we talked about today.
thefunnyguys: Yeah, thank you for that. Thanks, Grace, for the suggestion.
Kate Vass: We had this on the timeline, we were going to start workshops to discuss that, but we kind of skipped it somehow. Sorry about this. I think I'm just going to put it on a blog and timeline everything what we discussed, with all the events and political points and innovation, as a kind of help.
Peter Bauman: I wish we could talk all day with you about each of these moments. That would be ideal. But yeah, thank you so much for joining us, Kate. Like, honestly, perfect, perfect guest. So interesting to hear what you had to say. And we really appreciate it.
Conrad House: Thank you, Kate.
Kate Vass: Thank you. Thank you for inviting. Have a good evening.
thefunnyguys: Bye. Thank you, everyone.
Kate Vass: Thank you, guys. Thank you so much.
