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Peter Bauman: Hello everyone, and welcome to this Le Random podcast. I'm your host, Peter Bauman, the Editor-in-Chief at Le Random. And today we have an extra special episode as a companion to the newly released London Digital Art Guide at Le Random. But this is the real juicy insider stuff today. It's our Writers' Roundtable from the guide. And so we brought together most of the contributors and the writers, and we are going to chat with them about all things London and London digital art. Those contributors are the curator and producer Hannah Redler-Hawes, curator and writer Clara Che Wei Peh, the artist and author Robert Alice and art historian and curator Abigail Miller. It's such a wonderful panel. These are also the people that I handpicked to write the guide and co-write the guide with me. So I couldn't be more grateful.
Hannah is a UK-based curator and producer. She has over two decades of experience in museums and senior management roles. Clara is a London-based curator who founded NFT Asia. Robert Alice, besides being a great artist who investigates blockchain and its history and who's been collected by the Pompidou and LACMA, is also, of course, the author of Taschen's On NFTs. We are also so lucky to have Abigail Miller, who is at Avant Arte and is doing yeoman's work there, building art and technology for them.
These great contributors to our guide are joining me today so that we can unpack the digital art scene in London and also talk about how you, as a visitor, can make the most out of your trip. What they really seem to emphasize was the intimate and collaborative nature of London's digital art scene. And we also discuss how you as a visitor can explore its more underground, less known places beyond the traditional gallery spaces. So we have a lot to talk about. We have a whole city to discuss, and it's one of the most important in the world for digital art. So I can't wait. I'm so excited. Let's begin.
I just want to say, of course, thank you all so much for participating in the guide and writing for the guide, and now joining us here for this discussion about the guide. And I would just like to know, to get started, what your takeaways were and what you learned from writing your sections of the guide. We'll go section by section with the guide. So we'll start with the introduction. And we were so lucky to have Hannah Redler-Hawes write our introduction along with Alex Estorick. And unfortunately, Alex couldn't make it today, but he co-wrote the piece very graciously with Hannah. And I think, if I'm honest, you probably had one of the harder tasks, Hannah, to write the introduction. It's very difficult to put all of this into context and to set the scene, but I think you did a really wonderful job providing that context and writing a little bit about the history and also just being honest about the scene and its history in London and that relative to other parts of the UK. So can you tell us a little bit about your experience writing it? And then what were some of your takeaways and what you learned from writing the introduction?
Hannah Redler-Hawes: I think the experience of writing it was a case of thinking, how do we throw a net around the enormous range of practice that we've had in London in the digital arts field from the 1960s onwards? And what do we choose to reflect? Obviously, we've not included everything. You can't include everything in 700 words. But we wanted to give a sense of some of the key milestones and marker moments, flags in the sand, if you like. And we also wanted to show respect to some of the really important things that have happened that might not be visible any longer. And then we wanted to choose things that would feed into what people, visitors, can see, because obviously this isn't a historical document. This is a guide for people to come and experience London today. And we really wanted people to feel that they could see that they were becoming part of that when they become visitors here.
What did I learn? I guess it reinforced that sense that this has been a really, really far-reaching, mixed, multidisciplinary and diverse ecosystem that has been fed by all sorts of practitioners, many of which have been outside the mainstream art world. I trained in mainstream fine art painting and curating, contemporary art, but I moved into media art, and I met people who were coming from all sorts of different backgrounds. And the organizations that were supporting this field in the early '90s, when I started working in the field, were not necessarily art organizations. So the mainstream art world has only very, very recently started to support this work. And a lot of that's to do with the fact that artists are just naturally using digital technologies because it's the material of the everyday today.
Peter Bauman: One thing that struck me when we had our preliminary talk for this guide was you were telling me about how the London scene has really changed and how a lot of these spaces that were really prominent in previous decades have closed. And the other thing that struck me was just London's place relative to the rest of the UK. It wasn't always necessarily the center of digital art. And I wonder if you could say anything more about those two things.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: So I was trying to think about the first digital art I saw in London, and that was probably at a gallery that I don't think exists anymore called Camerawork. And that was the curator Helen Sloan, who had curated work with Tessa Elliott and Jonathan Jones-Maurice, who are pioneering British artists who don't have a high profile any longer. But they were writing AI artworks in the 1990s. But actually, the places where I saw the most work in the UK were at Moviola, which was a festival that fed into what is now FACT Liverpool, in Liverpool, and Root Festival, Hull Time Based Arts. And so the festival community has been absolutely central to the media art world that we see in London. That's what fed a lot of the huge installations that people were able to make, because they had residencies, because they had support through the festival circuit as well.
Peter Bauman: It's fascinating. I think you and Alex did a really wonderful job with the introduction. I can't wait for everybody else to read it. We can move on to Clara. Clara, you wrote maybe one of the... Well, I don't know. I guess it all just depends. But I think one of the funner sections of the guide, which is thinking about actually planning a trip and the excitement of that. You wrote about the trip planning section, when to go, where to stay, a little bit about the food, but always keeping in mind that you're really there to see art, and especially digital art. I really appreciated in your work just how detailed it was. I could tell that you were excited when you wrote it because it seemed dense, and I really appreciated that. And I just wondered, in the course of writing it, what you came across that was interesting, or maybe what some of the takeaways were or what you learned.
Clara Che Wei Peh: Yeah, I definitely had a lot of fun going through the process. I think as soon as you reached out, Peter, I was like, let me start this right away, because I just knew I was going to have a lot of fun and enjoyment working on it. And in approaching which neighborhoods to visit, I was also really intentional in moving away from maybe places that people would already be thinking about or areas with really high density of museums, big institutions. So I chose to focus on two areas where I think there are more up-and-coming or experimental programs, as well as more interdisciplinary experiences. It was really great fun to also think about potentially introducing people to spaces that show broader contemporary art but that currently or oftentimes also have programs engaging with digital or new media or moving image. So that was how I approached it. Just really wanting to think about the broader relationship that much of the new media field today shares with wider contemporary art discourse and how this guide or the routes that we're proposing could offer those insights.
Peter Bauman: When you were looking at how to think about neighborhoods and a map of the city, did it happen naturally, or did you have to gerrymander what to put together? How are these neighborhoods and walks that you put together?
Clara Che Wei Peh: I just did away with traditional neighborhood labelings, I think, and I just went. The first route that I suggested is between Bethnal Green and Shoreditch. And I just listed a bunch of galleries that I would go to, and that when I have friends visiting, I would take them to. Places that I think show really interesting programs, like Auto Italia South East, a project space where you're looking at artists that are really producing new commissions, and that may or may not be digital native, but they're often... Going back to the point that Hannah was talking about, responding to maybe the digital condition that we're in, but also thinking about, yes, other galleries doing really important and interesting work.
And then the second route I suggested was going from Somerset House and then across the river to South Bank, where you have a plethora of things that you can experience. I love that area, so I just really wanted to recommend it. But also, I gave a special mention to the Mediatheque in the BFI, where you have that luxury of accessing so much of the collection, which includes a lot of material, like early animation. So also thinking about digital art in its broader sense and that relationship of different kinds of works on screens, maybe through a more still moving image perspective. But yeah, I think that was probably a lot of gerrymandering. But these are walks that I would take. I was also thinking about accessibility in terms of length and how to reach these places, that these are easy enough places to go to, to follow along, but that are also easy to drop out of if you are sick of art and you're ready to move on to something else.
Peter Bauman: I just asked because I did that section for the New York guide, and I really felt like it was really tricky to jigsaw everything together. And also, New York is so dense, too. So the New York Soho area, we did, I think, three different walks or something. But I think one thing that was really interesting about your section was that you maybe subverted our expectations a bit by saying that Soho was the area to avoid, right?
Clara Che Wei Peh: On a weekend. I think that was a really tough question, because I was really like, I don't think there's anywhere that I would tell someone to avoid. And I think in my introduction, I also pointed out, I do think the broader arts scene, but also the digital art space here, is diverse enough that when you're going to these different pockets, you do get to see different parts of that conversation. So it's not that there's anywhere I wouldn't recommend someone going to or exploring. But personally, I would avoid... I don't like crowds. And so that was the only thing I could think of, which is maybe a bit of a cop-out, but yeah.
Peter Bauman: It makes sense. I think that was basically the same reasoning for the New York guide. I think the Museum Mile area, MoMA, around Central Park, was the place to avoid, and for pretty similar reasons.
Robert Alice: Clara, what was in the walk towards the South Bank?
Clara Che Wei Peh: Oh, so I suggested starting from Somerset House, where, especially during Frieze Week, you have 1-54. And then there'll also be the Somerset House Studios opening, and there's a party on the 17th. And then just going across the river to South Bank, Hayward Gallery, BFI, so on and so forth.
Robert Alice: I'm going to do the walk.
Peter Bauman: Well, yeah, that's the thing. So I also helped put together the walks for New York, and I was like, this really makes me want to go to New York and do these walks. And I feel the exact same thing about London. I really want to go and do these now.
Robert Alice: Clara, you've picked my favorite restaurant in London. Everyone should go there. It's banging. I love that place.
Peter Bauman: Amazing. Yeah, that's really cool. I need to star that in my Google Maps. But yeah, maybe we can go to you and talk about your section. So you have the section, I wouldn't call it the meat and potatoes, but this is really one of the heftier sections of the guide, where you talk about the actual galleries to go to and highlight specific ones that are digital-focused and, of course, also the museums. And so you looked at what to actually do when you're in London for a cheeky digital arts day. I really enjoyed that you were quite direct and honest, and I think that's what visitors need. They just need to know information. After putting this section together and thinking about, these are the digital spaces in London, I also wondered what some of your takeaways were and maybe what you learned. Also, what was your process for deciding what to include and what to highlight?
Robert Alice: Yeah, I learned a lot. I think I knew it already, but it was just interesting to actually confirm it. So the Tate has... You can just go on their website. It has 1,279 artworks on their walls, and only 13 of them are digital. So basically, the thing that I learned was there is this hidden depth of digital art in London, but it's really hard to find permanent displays of digital art year round. What that effectively means is it's fun. It's like a little treasure hunt, and you get to go to these small corners and have a unique, intimate experience. But it says more, I think, about the state and status of digital art in London.
All roads lead to the V&A. It has one of the great collections of digital art in the world, but none of it's on view, which is frustrating. But the other side of it is, if you're organized and you want to order ahead and set up a meeting and order artworks that you can see, you can go and curate your own little Wunderkammer for the afternoon in the V&A and see some amazing works holding white gloves. And that's a unique experience. That's actually, to some extent, a more engaging experience than going to see a great show. And I think actually, to some extent, that intimacy is really cool. As Clara also did, for what I did, I added places to go for lunch, so we can discuss those.
So, yeah, I think there are lots of places that have done great digital shows, the Serpentine, 180 The Strand. The programming is not year round, so it's very much Google and find out. I have to say, I was quite disappointed with the Tate. I think they could do more. I think it's a shame. I wrote, give it a protest vote, but you can choose whether to go or not. Up to you. There are lots of other smaller institutions, galleries, where you can guarantee seeing some digital art. I think Gazelli in Mayfair is somewhere you can always guarantee seeing something, which I think is cool. And again, Yied, now in Islington, I think it's going to be a real meeting point for the digital art community in a real way. I think that's really nice, to have a safe space in London that you can go to, and you can have a conversation and get pointed in another direction.
“What that effectively means is it's fun. It's like a little treasure hunt, and you get to go to these small corners and have a unique, intimate experience.” — Robert Alice 15:30
And then there are a few little Easter eggs. You want to travel up to Finsbury Park, go and see Furtherfield. You really want to get into the roots of the net art scene and trade some war stories, go and speak to Ruth Catlow, who's just a living legend. And so there are all these people, and I think the beauty of it is they're actually very accessible. If you plan ahead, you're going to have a more intimate personal experience than going to see some major retrospective with a thousand other tourists. And I think that's fun. It was fun thinking about it. It was fun to put it together. It made me realize that I think London still has a long way to go. There's this tension between how much digital art it has but how little is on view. And yeah, think of it as a treasure hunt and you'll have fun.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: Can I just add to that? I think that's so fabulous. But one of the problems with there not being any permanent work on display does relate to the fact that this was a really marginalized field for a long time, and it's in the process of being canonized. But the Tate's earliest digital work, the digital commissions for the Tate's website, they weren't actually accessions. And then Rafael Lozano-Hemmer, they purchased a work by him, but not as a digital media artist, as a Latin American artist. And the Science Museum, where I led an art program for a really long time, I did purchase permanent installations, but they'd be up for five years. One was up for actually nearly 15 years. But they're not up now, and I don't know what the museum's plans are to show them again. They're really hard to show again. So that's all tricky.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, that's really interesting. And even what you write about in your piece, about how all roads lead to the V&A and how much digital art it has, and also the role that it's played in the history of collecting digital art with Douglas Dodds and Patric Prince. And it's fascinating that it's just Corinna Gardner and, part-time, Melanie Lenz keeping it all together there.
Robert Alice: Yeah. It's this iceberg with this quite... It maybe requires more people to really get it out.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, definitely. And maybe that's something we can... A few of those topics I hope to touch on in maybe the second part of this conversation, which will be coming, where we discuss the scene from a broader level. Well, let's wrap up this section, with the writers' perspective on their wonderful work with the guide, with Abigail. Abigail, you had the, I think, also pretty fun task, and I also did this for the New York guide, of writing about the artists in London and just any sense of what the different scenes are there. And then you also added a lot ad hoc to the resources section. So can you just tell us a little bit about your contributions and what you learned by going about them?
Abigail Miller: Yeah, I think it's a sentiment that's been repeated in this conversation from everyone here that London is extremely diverse. And there are artists that come to mind right away that are based here in London, especially in the generative art scene specifically, such as Matt DesLauriers and all these artists. But I wanted to go a step further into the wider art world of artists using technology, computer art, as well as digital. There's a wide variety of artists that are coming out of Goldsmiths, really young artists that are getting a really good grasp of the British art scene, as well as certain older artists in their own right that have been using technology. So highlighting those that might not be as familiar to this community online that we are aware of, as well as then a lot of contemporary artists, such as Robert Alice here, to Lawrence Lek, to Alexandra Daisy Ginsberg, that have been doing a lot of institutional work across the board. And so highlighting all those different factors and bringing them all in one place.
As well as, in the ad hoc section, we've touched on it, but the resources, institutions. I think when people think of London, they automatically think of the Serpentine, the Tate and the V&A, which are doing such incredible things. But there's other research institutions that are doing a lot of important work, such as Birkbeck. Oxford and the Oxford Internet Institute is doing incredible stuff with AI right now, and the research is coming out of there. All the way to Goldsmiths, and then just wider researchers and curators that are doing their work, from the ICA to the Barbican to South London Gallery. There's a lot of programming, I think, on a smaller scale that is happening, and it just takes a guide like this to bring it all under one hood.
Peter Bauman: You did strike on a particular point, which is that this is something I definitely could never have done by myself. Or I could have, but it would have been a joke. So really, this had to be collaborative, with people who know the scene way better than I do, who live there, who have years of experience or decades of experience there. And so I so much appreciate everybody and what they contributed.
Abigail Miller: Yeah. And the last thing I think is also important. A lot of digital artists in their own right are showing, like Emalin to Edel Assanti, and Sadie Coles on the contemporary scene showing a lot of digital new media work of artists. As well as just highlighting, I think, the students coming out of Goldsmiths. Maybe not on an individual level, but getting people to graduate shows, I think, is really, really important. Even though this is a London guide, there's so many important artists that live outside of London, here in the UK, that is also just as rich. And sometimes I think people think they live in London, but really they might be based in Bath or Manchester.
Peter Bauman: I think we can go on to the second section, which is just about questions more general or more broadly speaking about the London digital art scene. And I think we've touched on a lot of them already, some of the interesting issues that London presents, or the greater UK. And especially for me, I'm thinking about how they're different from New York. But this is ultimately a London guide for visitors and for people who want to come and maybe enjoy art in the city, digital art. And I was just wondering, to kick it off, when you have friends visiting, and say this friend is some digital-art-obsessed person, what itinerary or what advice would you give a friend?
Abigail Miller: I think maybe this is a controversial take. And getting at this maybe coming from an American lens, living in London for six years now, I always find Londoners and British people to be posters. It is a city of house parties compared to New York, where things never sleep. So a lot of it is, again, repeated in this guide of very intimate experiences, going to the V&A and seeking that out specifically. And I think it's the same of everyone. If you reach out to Robert Alice, he's going to be like, come to my studio immediately. And those are the experiences I think London really provides, those intimate spaces and conversations, as well as just reaching out to, I think, everyone that's here. Everyone's so excited to get together. And when people come to town, I see people really rallying around that alongside putting together the itineraries.
Peter Bauman: I think that's a really good point. I think that it's really important just to know who's in a place. I even added that in the New York guide, when I did the artist section, that you could be lucky enough to get in touch with this person and do a studio visit. Yeah, you never know. I mean, obviously, I'm not giving out their email addresses, but Robert Alice might want to, if you're a really special person, show you around his studio.
Robert Alice: I'm a girl for anyone. I'm a gun for hire. No, you know what? I actually think what always attracts me to the art scene and also to the blockchain art world is everyone is a Twitter DM away. It doesn't really matter who you are. But if you have interest and you have the foresight to email ahead or send a DM ahead, then message me and come for lunch. That's the fun. And if I'm here, then for sure, for sure, come. So, yeah, I think that's the whole point. And that's what I would definitely say. It's a bit like what Abigail said. There are lots of artists working here. Just go and see some artists. That's the fun. Or just go and message and say, hey, what have you seen in the last couple of weeks that you like? And I'll let you know. We're outside of the haughty white cube for a reason.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: Exactly. It's always been a social scene. And of course, we've moved on from the point where everyone who was at Ars Electronica could fit on one bus. We probably need a fleet of buses and maybe a small island now. But it's about social networking as well. I guess I'd add to that that I'd always encourage people to look at the public programs, like all of the museum lates, not just the obvious art museums, all of the museum lates, all of the public programming. Because a lot of really experimental work, particularly work that museums and galleries can't afford to run for an exhibition period, will appear at these events. And you'll see a mix of artists, designers, researchers, tinkerers, hackers, and they're always up for a chat as well.
Clara Che Wei Peh: I also want to add that I think a sentiment that we're all trying to get at is that, if I have to give advice to someone visiting who's digital art obsessed, don't just look at the obvious places. I think what we're all trying to say is there's actually a lot of digital, or it could be moving image or related, work that is found in corners that maybe you didn't expect. They're often being shown in art galleries today. I mentioned Public Gallery's show right now, for example. But also, this is a hack if people don't know about it, but the Science Museum in South Kensington, they have a really, really great section of video games from the 1960s to today. You just pay a day pass or an annual pass, and they're free to play. And so if you're interested in that history of video games or games as art, including looking at the hardware, the different kinds of consoles that accompany that history, that's actually such a wonderful resource. But it's not necessarily being packaged as, oh, this is a place for digital art. But it's something that I think anyone who's interested in digital art can look at and would have a great field day out of.
Abigail Miller: There's so much young programming on the gallery side. I know so many digital artists, really, really young and working with young curators, that are just honestly getting an old school projector and getting friends around for beers at pubs and looking at art, because having a white cube space is so expensive. And there's a lot of that scene and energy right now happening in London. A lot of people are talking about the energy in the London contemporary art scene being something different in the last year and a half that hasn't been felt in decades. So there's things bubbling as well in conversations. But it's very much, you just got to talk to the people on the ground and be like, where are the meetups? Because it is such a social network, like Hannah has said.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: That reminds me of the early days of Furtherfield, a projector in Marc and Ruth's front room, which was in a warehouse.
Robert Alice: I do think everyone forgets that Leo Villareal has basically painted every London bridge with an evening light show, digital art show. So there is a very romantic date to be had taking Lime bikes down the river and looking at each bridge and having a beer on each one. So I would just recommend that, if it's not raining.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: Well, go full London and enjoy the rain.
Robert Alice: Yeah, exactly. Fuck it. Enjoy the rain. That would be even more romantic.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: What would my must-do be? And it would tie in perfectly with Clara's walking tour. Don't expect to find digital art in art galleries. Look to all the other places, the science museums, the natural history museums, the really teeny, teeny tiny museums, because you just never know where something has been commissioned that you don't know. There's an amazing digital artist who's done tons of work with the Dickens Museum because she was researching Dickens's wife.
Abigail Miller: I also think London is a great music scene as well. That's very intertwined, and going out. And that's how I've also experienced new media art, digital art, in the most surprising ways. I was with friends at Dalston Superstore, and they were showcasing new video work from an artist. And I was like, this is the last place I was expecting on a Saturday night to be seeing an installation video that's new, that they've commissioned. And so things like that. It's super intertwined. London has all these scenes, music as well, techno.
Robert Alice: My controversial recommendation is to go and protest the Tate and the V&A until they start buying blockchain art. I think it's a very good use of your time. I think compared to New York and compared to Paris, and I've done a lot of work in Paris, but compared to both cities, London, from an acquisitional point of view, is really far behind when it comes to blockchain art. And it's something that, whenever I speak to the powers that be, it's something I always try and push. But I do think that, yeah, it's an elephant in the room. It's like, why hasn't London got its act together? The Pompidou is building one of the great collections of blockchain art. The first thing you walk in... it's crazy. The first major artwork you see when you walk into MoMA, the headquarters for art in the world, is a 16-foot by 16-foot screen showing a blockchain artwork.
Peter Bauman: And for years.
Robert Alice: Yeah, for years now. And so it's frustrating to see that the Tate has almost... There's been no policy or even a working group or thought or even articles. MoMA for a year or so was writing about blockchain art and speaking to and interviewing people like Kevin McCoy before they started doing this. They even did a small conference. They slowly dipped their toe into it, and this is the realization of it. And I actually think it's incredibly persuasive when you go into MoMA to see that screen, just for the audience. And they don't even need to know that it's registered on blockchain. It's just the digital art. This is part of the entire history.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: The UK has been slow to support photography, actually. It was slow to support video art. It was slow to support net art. I was able to purchase things for the Science Museum, which is for the National Collection. So there's digital art in the National Collection, because we had a team of engineers who could run the stuff, and the conservation team was used to supporting digital and electronic media. And the Tate has started to purchase digital art and media art, but it's slow because of the conservation issues. And some of those questions are really good ones, but it's a British mindset that we've just seen across every new, emergent media and form. And I think that's it. It's interesting. It's a cultural thing. Why is it happening in France, not here?
Robert Alice: And I think the reality is, as you talk about photography, we're going to be in a situation, and maybe it's a bit controversial to say, but we're going to be in a situation in 30 years' time where, how many shows are the Tate and the V&A going to do of Elton John's collection in this decades-long war to get the collection once he dies? That's the reason they're putting the show on. And so who is going to be the blockchain collector they're going to do that to in 30 years' time, when people start understanding that this is an important part of the cultural history of the 21st century?
“And they don't even need to know that it's registered on blockchain. It's just the digital art. This is part of the entire history.” — Robert Alice 33:28
Peter Bauman: Well, you've laid down the gauntlet. They'll all be fighting now.
Robert Alice: Exactly. They already are, and they've made that mistake. It's like every two years there's an Elton John show. It's an amazing collection. Don't get me wrong. But there is a subtext to that, and the same thing will play out maybe for blockchain-based work in digital art in 20 or 30 years' time.
Abigail Miller: I definitely agree. I think it also gets at the landscape within London. That's not so much more on the guide side, but the development work with institutions is a whole different landscape, I think, compared to other cities, working within the very nonprofit space of London. And another section that I know Clara worked in, and I added a few institutions, but London is rich with nonprofit foundations like Delfina, different art foundations like arebyte, even the Camden Art Centre. Those are all doing incredible work and are part of the network as well. And so part of getting these institutions to focus on digital art is getting patrons in and getting that development work there.
Peter Bauman: Yeah, totally. So if New York has MoMA, it has even Christiane at the Whitney and what Regina is doing at MoMI. It has these champions of blockchain art at institutions. What would be the closest approximation in London? Would it be Serpentine?
Abigail Miller: I think probably Serpentine. But I also think it needs to be highlighted that being a curator in London is very different than being a curator in the US. It is, I think, one of the most noble causes. And I think it has been, as an American, both me and Clara graduated from the Courtauld, which is only art history. It's a very competitive field across the globe. But in London, you're starting at 20K, maybe. And that is a very...
Robert Alice: In the US, you're getting paid a lot more. What do you get paid in the US in an entry curatorial role, out of interest?
Abigail Miller: I mean, it depends where you're based in the US as well. In Nebraska, it's like 80K.
Robert Alice: Eighty K?
Abigail Miller: And in New York, it can be 60K. It's still not great. It's not the best across the world. Curatorial jobs are known for not being like Goldman Sachs jobs. And I think that also really needs to be noted. We want more of these programs, more of these people. They also need to be equally supported in the ecosystems if we want to see a change, not just us yelling into the black void of, we need more digital art curators, but people who can actually take on this work.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: Conservators.
Peter Bauman: Go on, Clara.
Abigail Miller: Conservators, for sure.
Clara Che Wei Peh: I was just going to say, I also think just the difference in the landscape. Even though we may not have as many people that we can name off the top of our head who are within these institutions and being really loud champions of digital art from this specific corner, I do think there are a lot of curators who are engaging with artists working with technologies, who are maybe just contemporary art curators but who have that sensitivity, who have that curiosity and who really work with artists. So even though it appears that it's harder to find the specific pinpoints right now, I just wanted to say that it's not that this work isn't being done. The visibility may just look a bit different. For example, I mentioned Gasworks in my section of the guide, and the curator Rosa, she's knowledgeable about blockchain. She's worked with so many artists who are looking at technology. These curators who work with artists in residence, for example, they're really sensitive to the way the artists are leaning into different mediums. Just because that work isn't titled digital art curator doesn't mean that they're not looking at that. So I just also wanted to put that forward. It's not a cultural desert for digital art.
Hannah Redler-Hawes: I think that's so important, Clara. I recently didn't get a job for a digital curator, producer or something, because the feedback I got... They didn't interview me, and I'm like, I didn't expect you'd definitely give me it, but I certainly expected an interview, with my background. And they were like, oh, well, we had so many applications. We just chose to interview people with digital in their job title. And I'm like, whoa, haven't we gone past that? I'm like, I'm a curator. I work with contemporary culture. It was mental. It was mental.
Robert Alice: Well, to feed into what you're saying, Clara, I slightly thought I'd shoot myself in the foot, which is basically, and I'm speaking specifically to the blockchain native digital art collector that has a deep understanding of digital art and may have less of an understanding of the wider ecosystem of contemporary art, which is to say, it's great to go and hunt for all these digital art truffles around London. But at the same time, it's also great just to go and see loads of galleries and see everything else that's being made, some of it digital, some of it not. And actually, what that will do... It may not mean that you're looking at pixels, but you may be looking at ways to, I don't know, not make you more sophisticated, but ways just to broaden your eye. And London has such a great art scene. The majority of work made by artists who are under 50 will include some digital practice. And just viewing that and looking at the context will expose you to whole new things that will make you a better collector, critic, student, artist, whatever. It's easily one of the biggest and one of the best culture capitals of the world.
“Just because that work isn't titled digital art curator doesn't mean that they're not looking at that. So I just also wanted to put that forward. It's not a cultural desert for digital art.” — Clara Che Wei Peh 38:41
Peter Bauman: Which is why I think, Abigail, your point about music was really good, too. Luba Elliott brings groups to see algoraves, because algoraves have a history of development in the UK. If you're watching or listening and feel overwhelmed, I think that's exactly what the guide is for. The guide is out already. I think most, if not all, of what we talked about today is at some point in the guide. But, well, yeah, thank you all so much. We could talk for hours, I think. But thank you all so much for doing the writing, for really helping out with that and then also for this really great chat. I wish we could have talked longer, as always.
All: Thanks, Peter. Love you too. Thank you so much. Thank you.
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